Real Dialogue On Saints And Purgatory

What is the actual role of saints and whether purgatory exists, is haunting in many catholics mind. Other christian denomination does not seriously follow the concepts.

Here you will see actual dialogue(via sms) between 2 persons, for you to understand the problem. Person A- is a catholic, where person B was a born Catholic, now strongly following, some other Christian denomination.

A.  sent following sms on 2/11/2015
All Souls Day(2/11)
Similar to earthly friends,U should develop heavenly friends-saints,which we reflected yesterday!.Today U remember U'r friends suffering in PURGATORY{ex:2maccabees(12:43-45)}-can U forget U'r friends who have departed?Like all saints,all souls also family feast,where social bonds are renewed.Council of trent,declared,souls in purgatory(they cannot help themselves,but depend on living people)are assisted by U'r prayers+alms+offering Holy Mass, to satisfy divine justice+to shorten their detention in purgatory,where they must expiate their Venial sins+suffer pains due to their sins,whose guilt,indeed,has already removed but for which there still left a debt of temporal punishment,on account of imperfection in repentance. Church custom enriched with visiting cemetery today.U'r living is interdependent with both spiritual &earthlysociety. Protestants do not believe purgatory.U'r friends?

B. responded

We don't believe purgatory. It's not Biblical. Also Mary and Saints aren't alive. They are dead and gone. Their spirits are taking rest in Paradise until Jesus Christ comes into the mid air during the Rapture to take them to Heaven. As such, they cannot intercede for anyone. Only Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit could intercede for us as per the Bible.

A(1).

It is a good explanation!. Church has been formed by Holy Spirit: following changes are made by Holy Spirit.
(1)Open to whole world(cast-less)
(2)No circumscion(jesus+all apostles were circumscised)
(3)Saints+purgetory concepts introduced
(4)Holy Mary's concepts introduced
(5) Artificial birth controled+abortion+Euthanasia prohibited
Are U following for U'r own convenience? Which points U disagree?. When U follow bible, who has formed the church? Is it Jesus
Or Holy Spirit?
Conceptually,saints+purgatory comes from introduction of free will(ability to choose,independent of God)after Jesus to human!

B(1)

Yes,Church was formed by Holy Spirit (Biblical). Word is Word and nobody could add or remove anything to/from it at his convenience. Holy Spirit will never reveal or direct anything contrary to Written Word. No circumcision (Biblical-we are now circumcised in our hearts/minds -not bodies-by Holy Spirit). No abortion (Biblical-it's clearly a murder). No euthanasia ( Biblical-this is assisted suicide and is a sin). Mother Mary and Saints concept (non-Biblical-only the Creator should be venerated/worshipped but not any creation. There is none good but one, that is God-Mark 10:18). Artificial birth control (non-Biblical-children are a heritage from the Lord. Denial is a sin). Open to whole world ( Biblical-Acts 10, Rom 11). Free will (Biblical but it cannot be used for flesh-Gal 5). Purgatory (non-Biblical-once dead there is only 1 or 0, paradise or hell, in between there is only a great gulf-Luke 16:26).
So, we have to believe only the Written Word and Biblical things.


A(2)

V gd explanations & appreciate U'r interest.
Holy spirit thru' papal infallibility, gives church,all guidance necessary for us to manage all paradigm changes of humans. Just let me know easy thing: I quote U

(1)"No circumcision (Biblical-we are now circumcised in our hearts/minds -not bodies-by Holy Spirit)."
(2)Word is Word and nobody could add or remove anything to/from it at his convenience.

I CONCLUDE THAT U'R CONTRADICTING U'R SELF BY (a)NOT CIRCUMSCIED & BY EATING PORK
Jesus, clearly told"wait until Holy Spirit comes" to form the church. THIS IS NOT WHAT JESUS TOLD!


B(2)
There is no contradiction. There are verses in the Holy Bible to confirm what I have mentioned. Let me send them to you soon. Holy Spirit has done all necessary changes to the Old Testament and those changes are already mentioned in the New Testament. He will reveal to His people (not only to Pope) time to time
time to time the right meaning of the Word but it will be within the framework of the Written Word already given to us. No addition, no subs traction, true meaning and guidance to apply It to our lives only.

A(3) thanks Mr B. Desite U'r work,U'r interested: tks

Pl let me know about(pork+circumscion)when U get it!. Peter representing pope, under Holy spirit, open church to all nations and implement these changes. On one side paradigm of people changes, on the other side to keep the God's kindom, church has to clarify issues. Pork+circumscion is one example: we need friends+gratitude to friendships(departed ones). Saints+purgatory is one example (further for intercessionary prayers there are many examples from Gospel: cana wedding etc)


B(3) I got some verses that say circumcision is not required- 1 Cor 7:17-19.

About no restriction on eating pork - 1 Cor 10:25.

A(4)It is  hard work. My comment is"there are about 13 doc, in the new testament(after church established by Holy Spirit). This is continuing in the LIVING CHURCH. For ex:

One can argue,If I am suffering with cancer with unbearable pain, Euthanasia is good. Another case some can argue abortion is good, since you are not killing a living person. Some can argue test tube child is bad. As a church, there should be a process to guide people what is morally good. Similarly church, under infallability of Pope declare certain things. As a personal manager,I hope U understand the value of that!

B(4)

Thanks. I don't deny the value of guiding people along God's way. That is the responsibility of every Christian. However, it should be done within the framework of the Written Word. Whatever we say should tally with the Scriptures.
I will find some more verses on the same subjects when I get back home and send you.


A(5)

Written word has to be dynamic, because our living world is dynamic!. Otherwise there is no difference of living conditions of my son to me!.
We are living in a dynamic world with Dynamic Church, under guidance of Holy Spirit!



B(5) It is dynamic of course. Holy Spirit is making it dynamic in the lives of people.

A(6)
Yes, there should be a clear process to be established like ISO



For you to think!

F. Further analysis:
(1)Jesus, clearly told"wait until Holy Spirit comes" to form the church.
(2)Ability to choose or using Free Will was given to Human,after Jesus teaching of love and pardoning
(3)Paradigm of world is changing every day. Hence church need to advice human, thru' Holy spirit, via Pope(representing St peter) as what to do, not contravene to morality or to maintain morality
(4)Saints+Purgatory are beautiful concepts to maintain morality of human, where human is always interdependent to another humans.
(5)Uncorrupt body's of saints show us the value of this concepts!
(6) Mary and saints alone has limited powers and cannot compare with God. They intercede with God, on behalf of us.

(7)Living God Vs dead God
We know God is omnipotent, omniscent,omni presence. HE is totally living.
God always make the paradigm of people dynamic (every time changing). Holy spirit thru' Pope will declare how to manage this change. Church in turn make God living!.
When we stop only with Bible it is static not dynamic.

For more details follow this links :
http://weeklycatholicreflection.blogspot.com 
Or
http://www.sundayreading.net/  ‬

Or for more details about Mary

http://holymaryreflection.blogspot.com